Response to Gender Legislation Episode

In this episode, my friend and collaborator Stan Werne provides his response to the previous episode on Gender Legislation, which was episode number 10.

1. “Intersex,” The Cleveland Clinic  https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex
2. Declaration “Dignitas Infinita,” on Human Dignity https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2024/04/08/240408c.html
3. “Four Things Catholics Need to Know About Transgender People,” Luisa Derouen, O.P. https://outreach.faith/2022/07/four-things-catholics-need-to-know-about-transgender-people/
4. “What is it like being Catholic and transgender?” Christine Zuba https://outreach.faith/2025/12/what-is-it-like-being-catholic-and-transgender/
5. “A transgender Catholic reflects on what keeps her in the church,” Danielle Koutsoufis https://outreach.faith/2025/08/a-transgender-catholic-reflects-on-what-keeps-her-in-the-church/
6. “Catholic Tradition Has Always Included Trans People Like Me,” Max Kuzma https://sojo.net/articles/opinion/catholic-tradition-has-always-included-trans-people-me
7. “Love-in-Truth: Accompanying Those Suffering Gender Dysphoria,” Archbishop Paul S. Coakley https://whatweneednow.substack.com/p/love-in-truth-accompanying-those
8. “Answers to Several Questions . . .,” Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (English version) https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_20231031-documento-mons-negri_en.html
9. “Pope Francis meets with transgender, intersex and ally Catholics,” Jeannine Gramick, SL https://www.lorettocommunity.org/pope-francis-meets-with-transgender-intersex-and-ally-catholics/
10. Podcast website with full transcripts for this episode and all other episodes

Transcript

Tom:

Welcome to “Headline News and Catholic Social Teaching,” where we take a brief look at stories in the news, not from a left or right political perspective, but through the lens of Catholic Social Teaching.  I’m your host, Tom Mulhern, and my aim is to help us grow in our love of God and love of our neighbors.

In this episode, my friend and collaborator Stan Werne provides his response to the previous episode on Gender Legislation, which was episode number 10.

All right, without further ado, here’s Stan. 

Stan: 

As Tom explained in the introduction, my contribution to the podcast this time relates to episode 10 on gender legislation and CST.  I'll start by noting that I think the social teaching of the Church on transgenderism--the term Tom used--is clear and fairly straightforward if by transgenderism we mean a kind of reflex acceptance--no, more than acceptance--a reflex aggressive promotion that we should take at face value any and all claims to gender dysphoria and any and all desires to transition at whatever age.  I'm going to try to distinguish transgenderism, defined that way, from a cautious moral approval of transitioning for those individuals who are as free as possible from underlying psychological issues that might temporarily manifest themselves as gender dysphoria. I'll be way in over my head on some of the details because I don't know enough about the experience of gender dysphoria or about how transitioning works for those who have done that successfully. So, if anything I say is just factually wrong, I'll have to admit that and see how that affects my thinking. I also need to point out here at the beginning that I’ll be repeating some of the sources in Tom’s show notes to his episode 10 as well as add a few of my own.

I don't quarrel with the general application of the theological underpinnings of the Church's social teaching to this issue. Every human being has an inherent God-given dignity so that any kind of discrimination against transgender individuals is wrong.  It’s also true that we humans come into life as bodily gendered beings--ordinarily straightforwardly male or straightforwardly female--for fairly obvious reasons, among which is to make the next generation of people. Trying to undo or work against that for self-aggrandizing reasons is wrong. However, nature sometimes messes up, and what is ordinarily true is not true for every individual. For example, some people are born intersex, that is, with a mix of male and female sex characteristics, some variations of which are visually apparent at birth, and others of which remain undetected until puberty or a medical exam later in life.  You can find a straightforward factual explanation of intersex from the Cleveland Clinic in show note 1.  I assume it is intersex people that the Declaration Dignitas Infinita, on Human Dignity, refers to in paragraph 60, where it states:

“This is not to exclude the possibility that a person with genital abnormalities that are already evident at birth or that develop later may choose to receive the assistance of healthcare professionals to resolve these abnormalities. However, in this case, such a medical procedure would not constitute a sex change in the sense intended here.” 

You can read the declaration by checking the link in show note 2.

However, I think it is true that some individuals are simply externally gendered in a way that does not align with their genuine and accurate self-perception as male or female.  (You might well ask what it means to have a genuine and accurate self-perception as male or female.  I'm going to set that question aside for now.) If it is true that some individuals are simply externally gendered in a way that does not align with their genuine and accurate self-perception as male or female, then I think the Church pushes too far or seems to express a black and white judgment about a gray issue in saying that gender transitioning is not morally acceptable. 

So, I owe you a more detailed explanation of why I believe gender transitioning is sometimes morally acceptable.

First, instances of genuine and accurate gender dysphoria do exist. That is, some humans are biologically gendered in a way that does not align with their genuine and accurate self-perception as male or female.  By genuine and accurate I mean that the dysphoria is not simply a temporary byproduct of some psychological issue or trauma. I mean a byproduct in the sense that if the psychological issue or trauma were resolved, the dysphoria would or might resolve.

Second, since some instances of genuine and accurate gender dysphoria do exist, God allows that from very early in development some biologically gendered male or female humans have a genuine and accurate self-perception as being a member of the opposite gender. 

Third, since God allows that there are instances of genuine and accurate gender dysphoria, it seems that it is not against God's will that such people transition to the gender that they genuinely and accurately perceive themselves to be. 

This is how I reach the cautious conclusion that gender transitioning in cases of genuine and accurate gender dysphoria is not morally wrong.

Now I know that the phrase "genuine and accurate" is bearing a lot of weight in my reasoning here, but I want to qualify gender dysphoria this way to avoid the traps of transgenderism or gender ideology.  In other words, I believe that a person experiencing gender dysphoria needs to go through some kind of process to reach a confident judgment that their dysphoria is genuine and accurate rather than a passing expression of some psychological or emotional confusion.  

So, it's fair of our listeners to ask: Is there is a standard for genuine and accurate gender dysphoria that is more objective than just self-determination or just "I'm feeling it, so it must be genuine and accurate"?  Initially, I think that sorting that out requires someone with gender dysphoria to undergo psychological evaluation by an objective professional.  On this score I would be wary of any professional who subscribes to transgenderism, as I defined it above, that is, anyone who aggressively promotes that we should take at face value all claims to gender dysphoria and all desires to transition at whatever age. An objective professional of this kind can help the person with gender dyphoria to reflect and gain greater self-awareness. To be clear here, I'm not advocating anything remotely like conversion therapy.  It's just that transitioning is a such a significant thing that I think one should proceed slowly and cautiously.  Also, for a believer, in addition to psychological evaluation, I think that spiritual direction would help the person get beyond "I'm feeling it, so that alone makes it genuine and accurate."  And here I freely admit that I don't have the knowledge or professional experience to go beyond this basic level. I have no gender dysphoria at all.  But it's clear that some people do suffer gender dysphoria.  I can only imagine what that is like.

I think we can gain some insight into a standard for genuineness and accuracy by hearing about the experiences of trans people like those who Sister Luisa Derouen mentions in her essay “Four Things Catholics Need to Know About Transgender People” (show note 3). (Apologies to Sister Luisa if I've mispronounced her name. Likewise apologies to the other writers I'm going to refer to here.) We might also get some guidance directly through discussions with trans Catholics like Christine Zuba, author of “What is it like being Catholic and transgender?” (show note 4), Danielle Koutsoufis, author of “A transgender Catholic reflects on what keeps her in the church” (show note 5), and Max Kuzma, author of “Catholic Tradition Has Always Included Trans People Like Me” (show note 6).  In other words, the experiences of faithful trans Catholics can provide us with some insight into how a judgment can best be made that a person has a genuine and accurate self-perception of being misgendered and when and how the transition process is best accomplished.

Here's another question that can fairly be asked: Supposing a reasonable standard for genuine and accurate gender dysphoria can be attained, does it follow that the Church's teaching against transitioning is wrong? To phrase it another way: Just because God made me this way, that is, I genuinely and accurately perceive that I am a male in a female body or a female in a male body, does it follow that it is consistent with God's will that I transition?  After all, traditional theology tends to reject the equating of natural inclination with divine approval. As I think about this, I'm inclined to think that inclination is too weak a term to accurately describe the situation of a person with gender dysphoria. If a person genuinely and accurately experiences gender dysphoria, then I'm claiming that it is "hard-wired" into them and that at least opens the possibility that it is not against God's will that such a person transition, and so the Church needs to have a more nuanced teaching. 

Yet I have to acknowledge that it's possible that gender dysphoria is one example of the fact that we humans are fallen creatures in a fallen world. It's possible that even the “hard-wiredness” of genuine and accurate gender dysphoria may not mean that a decision to transition is in line with God's will. If that is the truth of the matter, then it may be that living with gender dysphoria may require a person to accept their dysphoria as part of God's will for them, as part of the requirement that we believers need to deny ourselves and take up our crosses in this life. That seems to be the message in Archbishop Paul Coakley’s pastoral statement that Tom provided in his episode 10 and that I’ve listed in show note 7.

To conclude this episode, my thinking on the morality of transitioning leaves me in the unsatisfactory position of knowing that it is inconsistent with current official Catholic teaching. On the other hand, it may be that just as the Church’s teaching on other moral issues has evolved in the past—I’m thinking, for example, of its judgments about capital punishment—so it may evolve on gender dysphoria and transitioning. One small step that indicates this may not be totally out of the question is the set of answers the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith gave in 2023 to the questions from a bishop in Brazil about whether a trans person can be baptized, serve as a godparent, or serve as a witness in a sacramental marriage ceremony. While it’s not surprising that qualifiers are attached in some cases, the answer in each case is “yes”. You can find the English translation of that document in show note 8. 

In the meantime, that may be small comfort for trans Catholics and Catholics struggling with gender dysphoria and whether they can rightly transition. Still, I’ll try to end on a positive note by relating what a priest told Nicole Santamaria, an intersex woman: “Angels are neither male nor female; they serve and praise God through their acts of helping humans. Every time someone says something hurtful to you, remember that you are like an angel. You have a mission in this world, to praise and serve God and your neighbor.” (See show note 9.)  Each of us with an ounce of self-reflection know that we are not angels, but maybe we can try harder to imitate the angels by praising and serving God and serving our neighbors.

Tom:

Thank you, Stan, for your thoughtful and respectful analysis. 

And that’s it for this episode of “Headline News and Catholic Social Teaching.”  If you found it worthwhile, I invite you to share it with others. 

And, as always, may this episode in some small way help us live our lives guided by the Holy Spirit through the teachings of the Church.  

Thank you for listening.